virtualexile: Examples of how some memes interact

Matthew Dominic Hunter (

virtualexile) wrote,
@ 2003-04-15 14:13:00

Current mood:

chipper

Examples of how some memes interact
Everywhere we look we can drill down further and find wheels within wheels. There are no fundamental wave/particle/s. And if you postulate that time loops, and that all processes are inherently conscious ... but THAT'S WHAT HEINLEIN did!

I finally grok Heinlein's The Number of the Beast. Damn ... we grow up thinking all these books are science fiction. Well, some of them are actually fables that teach us about how the world works.

(21 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	thirdreel 2003-04-15 12:04 pm UTC (link)
	I think meme warfare has been going on for a very long time. Everything from the crusades to the cold war and beyond...hell, even the war on terrorism. We need bigger guns, as it were. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: guns virtualexile 2003-04-15 12:11 pm UTC (link)
	Yes ... the possibilities of modeling it raise all sorts of multi-dimensional phenomena in which our thoughts are no longer who "we" are. The self/no-self concept fits in here. We ride reality, are ridden by reality, and the ambiguity gives everything an illusory shimmer. And if the memes themselves are conscious ... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

memes and metaphors

thirdreel
2003-04-15 12:25 pm UTC (link)

It's been said that the purpose of a meme is to make the human mind more hospitable to memes. So thinking "I am my thoughts" shows that the memes have been quite successful--particularly because if a thought shapes the "I am," it's likely to stay in the mind for quite a while.

I'm not sure if we could live memelessly--or even try to. Still, a steady flow of memes in all directions is better than a constant stream of propaganda, the meme slavery you mention below.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: memes and metaphors virtualexile 2003-04-15 12:35 pm UTC (link)
	No Memes for Oil! ;-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: memes and metaphors thirdreel 2003-04-15 12:53 pm UTC (link)
	Hmm. Actually, it might be better as "No blood for memes," as I would gladly trade a meme or two for a full tank of gas. But that's neither here nor there. My philosophy on meme spreading is this: Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: memes and metaphors virtualexile 2003-04-15 12:55 pm UTC (link)
	LOL The memes are much more interested in having that oil than you and I are. A great majority of the memes alive today depend on current levels of energy availability. Some of the memes probably feel threatened by alternative fuel sources. (Reply to this) (Parent)

richie73
2003-04-15 12:12 pm UTC (link)

Maybe you're using the wrong search engine. Google found 387 hits. Adbusters for example has a great article on meme warfare: http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/32/meme.html

Anyway, what's your definition of "meme warfare"? The concept, to me seems to be similar in meaning to propaganda.

The Republicans, by the way, are the masters of meme warfare. That's the secret of their success. They are very adept at encapsulating reactionary and just plain wrong ideas into reasonable-sounding catchy little phrases that fit on bumper stickers and into 7-second TV-soundbites (read: that are highly viable in the meme pool).

Reagan's vicious, misleading notion of the "wellfare queen" single-handedly did more damage to the idea of a social safety system that all the tracts and papers ever published by Heritage, American Enterprise and all the other right-wing think tanks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: search engine

virtualexile
2003-04-15 12:17 pm UTC (link)

I was searching for "modeling meme warfare" -- didn't find anything that way. I'll try more searches later. It may have been studied under other phrases.

Oh no, don't make me define it yet!

It encompasses more than propaganda, there are higher order interactions. Propaganda is like the linear version, in which a meme master is consciously creating a meme for its meme slaves.

Now I see why Chomsky is a linguist at MIT. This goes to the structure of language, and why language is not as precise as the lower levels of math.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine richie73 2003-04-15 12:26 pm UTC (link)
	Sorry, sorry. I shouldn't underestimate your intelligence, and presume to lecture you on how to use a search engine. Can you give me an example of a higher order instance of meme warfare? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: search engine

virtualexile
2003-04-15 01:12 pm UTC (link)

Self-image is a higher order meme, from which other meme production and acceptance flows. So a meme that affects self-image is an even higher order meme.

Buddhism, which prescribes that there is no self, removes the self-image concept from the playing field, blocking the memes that affect self-image. This makes the no-self/Buddhist meme stronger than all of the higher order memes that affect self-image, which affects other meme availability and resistance.

A self-image that one is "stupid" blocks the meme master capability and creates a very receptive meme slave. A self-image that one is "intelligent" combined with a knowledge of meme production creates a first order meme master. A Buddhist, with no self-image, is able to observe multi-dimensional meme warfare without being drawn into it. This allows the Buddhist to create higher order memes which understand multi-dimensional meme warfare.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine richie73 2003-04-15 04:27 pm UTC (link)
	This is such a fascinating idea that I want to read a book about it. Maybe one authored by Mr. Matthew D. Hunter? ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine virtualexile 2003-04-15 04:28 pm UTC (link)
	I'm writing it now, you are reading it now, and I'm a little scared. But I'm not alone. Izolda is here with me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: search engine virtualexile 2003-04-15 06:13 pm UTC (link)
	It's definitely a paradigm shift. If nobody else has written about it, I should. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine richie73 2003-04-15 08:24 pm UTC (link)
	Can I have a free autographed copy when it's done? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine virtualexile 2003-04-16 12:23 am UTC (link)
	Sure :-) (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: search engine

virtualexile
2003-04-15 01:28 pm UTC (link)

Master memes, either consciously or unconsciously, can defend their turf by labeling others as "stupid", hoping that this meme-attachment takes root in the host, producing a compliant meme slave, or extinguishing another meme. I'm not sure this is always a conscious process. But whenever somebody calls another person derogatory names they are trying to establish & maintain meme dominance.

By taking pride in the derogatory name, the negative-connotation-meme-attachment loses its force, so new derogations must be added to the arsenal. If you are no longer afraid to be known as a homosexual, then perhaps you are afraid to be known as somebody who practices the homosexual lifestyle, or supports the homosexual agenda. This is the "love the sinner, hate the sin" adaptation to the cultural acceptance of the homosexuality meme.

The cultural acceptance of homosexuality is probably dependent on materialistic factors -- cultures which have a low rate of childbearing also have a high rate of acceptance of homosexuality. When childrearing becomes expensive -- as it does in a highly materialistic culture -- then abortion rights, homosexuality, and birth control memes are allowed wider acceptance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine richie73 2003-04-15 04:29 pm UTC (link)
	I think the religious fundamentalist meme has a very powerful self-defense system. Once you've become infected, most other memes become powerless. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: search engine virtualexile 2003-04-15 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	That's the idea. (Reply to this) (Parent)

richie73
2003-04-15 12:37 pm UTC (link)

Some people believe that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft whose existence is being covered up by government.

Some people believe that UFOs are super-secret experimental military vehicle, and that government has created the ET meme to distract attention from the truth.

Some people believe that UFOs are extra-terrestrial spacecraft, and that government has created the super-secret military spacecraft meme to distract attention from the truth.

Some people believe that some UFOs are extra-terrestrial spacecraft, and others are super-secret military vehicles.

The professional skeptics believe that all UFO sigthings are due to delusions, fraud and mistaken observations.

Many UFOlogists believe that some professional skeptics are government agents whose job is to create anti-UFO memes to perpetuate the ET coverup.

Some people believe that some UFOlogists are government agents whose job is to create pro-UFO memes to perpetuate the secrecy surrounding secret military vehicles.

Is this an example of non-linear meme warfare?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: example virtualexile 2003-04-15 12:42 pm UTC (link)
	Yes! Thanks! But, some memes are not consciously created. They are mutants. And, of course, most memes are not consciously understood to be memes by most people. So there are systems of memes that are operating outside of the dominance of human meme master control. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	more virtualexile 2003-04-15 12:44 pm UTC (link)
	And human meme masters have limited capabilities, which are themselves created by memes and controlled, at least in part, by memes. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(21 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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